D&D games today tend to have parties where all the PCs are at the same level. Often the whole party takes an evening to level up.
In earlier times parties were often mixed. Leveling up was done per person based on XP and XP was doled out by the DM at the end of the evening based on PC performance. Players took notes to remind the DM, I killed that troll or I cast that spell trying to maximize XP earned. Also different classes leveled up at different XP so there was almost never an entire party leveling up at the same time. This took a lot of bookkeeping but that's the kind of geeks we were.
Also when a PC was killed the player would roll a new character at level 1. So a party of four could have a level 3 thief, a level 4 fighter, a level 2 wizard, and a level 1 cleric. (Who used to be the best fighter until he died.)
I like this. It adds a certain grittiness to the game and it certainly affects battle tactics. But when I wrote Just Quest as a minimal rules OSR I wrote, "The characters level up on successful completion of a quest". A simple rule for a game designed to be easy to play.
Where do you stand on this? Do you enjoy playing in mixed parties? If you're a DM do you try to keep your parties at about the same level or do you embrace the idea of mixed parties?
We may discuss this on Inspired Unreality Monday night or we may just drink some tea with the Milyagon witch and see what happens next.
I think this is a cool aspect of old school games that isn't common anymore. I love the grittiness of it, and the mixed levels never bothered me when I played. I remember even having some guest players over who brought over their level 9 character to our 5th level campaign. It never bothered us.
That said, for a dungeon master it's much easier to do milestone leveling and have all the players be the same level. It's a lot less to keep up with, and certainly for writing adventures I think it takes a load off the DM if they only have to worry about writing it for 4-6 players of 3rd level, than 4-6 players of 2nd-5th level.
There are several aspects of old school games I like, most notably the increased diversity that randomness tended to cause.
The wildly divergent capabilities of characters, however, was not one of them. In the presence of most GMs, having the weakest character meant a) dying, or b) not having anything to do. Neither of these is really conducive to enjoyment.
There are a handful of GMs I've met in my life who could give equal "screen time" to characters of wildly divergent capabilities, but those are few and far between.
Mixing levels amplifies this already-existing problem tenfold in my books. (Never mind that levels measure nothing meaningful in D&D; that's a rant for another day.) If you're the first level magic user in a group of 3-5th level other things, your entire gaming session consists of cowering in the corner and hoping you don't get noticed. You have nothing you can do that helps anybody (unless you're lucky enough to have gotten Sleep -- in which case you got to do one thing that might have slightly contributed), and this will also very badly impact your ability to level up to a point where you can be useful.
Points well taken. (and I really want to hear your rant for another day, that levels measure nothing meaningful in D&D.) Some things a DM can do to address your points are to start the new character at second or third level but still in the bottom ranks of the party. Level the character up quickly by adjudicating extra XP for doing well in spite of the low level disadvantage. Help the low level character out with found spells or magic armor/weapons.
And then there's the whole non combat side. The role playing, puzzle solving, exploration part where characters of all levels are more equal and the results depend more on the player than on PC stats. And DMs can award XP for good performance in non combat situations.
There is a built in premise in OSR games. PCs need XP to level up. You get XP by killing monsters. So, let's go kill some monsters. At a lot of tables that is the game. To me, it's a side show and as I get older I run more games that are all exploration and role play without any combat at all.
Liz wrote: "Just wanted to add something since I'm not sure i can even make it Monday. Mom at one point started a drop-in drop-out/open play DCC campaign (it didn't last very long due to where we lived) so I have a little experience.
What she did was give each player that was there their 4 level 0 characters for the funnel. After that, we all picked a character to level to level 1. The idea would be that it took 1 game to get to level 1, 2 additional games to get to level 2, 3 games for level 3, etc.
If a player was to have their character die, they'd start again with either 4 level 0s or a level 1.
So figuring out when you level is easy, since you only have to count the number of games you were able to play in. But you would still eventuality get level differences, as players die or miss games (again, this was supposed to be for open play)"
I'd like to add that in the oldest of old school most of your XP came from earning treasure not killing monsters. Which means two things 1. You don't have to fight that big bad monster if there was a way around it to get the treasure behind it. and 2. Your lower level character would level very rapidly because of the amount of gold the higher level party was able to procure.
I appreciate the comments about mixed level parties being difficult to adjudicate for. But one thing that is different for old school (unless I am mistaken they changed this in later editions) is that any magic user could use any scroll. Even if they are not high enough level to cast that spell. So if you have a low level wizard among your 5th level parties dropping a few scrolls changes the whole dynamic.
I didn't know that. When I mentioned scrolls I was thinking of more spells per day not stronger spells. Also when I was first playing D&D we got almost all our hit points from killing monsters just because the game wasn't treasure oriented. Generally speaking group XP is always the lion's share and will help low level characters level up fast.
Provided you don't get instakilled by the first creature larger than a kitten that takes a swipe at you.
Provided you don't get BORED being relegated to the sideline for multiple grueling hours of watching OTHER PEOPLE have fun.
I mean my calculus is simple: I play games for fun. If I'm not having fun, I don't go to that game anymore. I don't plan fun on spec. It's fun out the door or I move on.
The non-combat things that hairylarry mentioned can ameliorate this, but in my experience those tended to be few and far between in most campaigns. You'd have a short time in the village talking to the villagers and then it's the next fifteen sessions in the dungeon.
There are a great many things to praise in the old school. The way mixed-level parties worked was not one of them. Some GMs could figure it out. Most couldn't, leaving the low-levelled character's player bored and/or frustrated and, very likely, absent next week.
That said, for a dungeon master it's much easier to do milestone leveling and have all the players be the same level. It's a lot less to keep up with, and certainly for writing adventures I think it takes a load off the DM if they only have to worry about writing it for 4-6 players of 3rd level, than 4-6 players of 2nd-5th level.
The wildly divergent capabilities of characters, however, was not one of them. In the presence of most GMs, having the weakest character meant a) dying, or b) not having anything to do. Neither of these is really conducive to enjoyment.
There are a handful of GMs I've met in my life who could give equal "screen time" to characters of wildly divergent capabilities, but those are few and far between.
Mixing levels amplifies this already-existing problem tenfold in my books. (Never mind that levels measure nothing meaningful in D&D; that's a rant for another day.) If you're the first level magic user in a group of 3-5th level other things, your entire gaming session consists of cowering in the corner and hoping you don't get noticed. You have nothing you can do that helps anybody (unless you're lucky enough to have gotten Sleep -- in which case you got to do one thing that might have slightly contributed), and this will also very badly impact your ability to level up to a point where you can be useful.
What she did was give each player that was there their 4 level 0 characters for the funnel. After that, we all picked a character to level to level 1. The idea would be that it took 1 game to get to level 1, 2 additional games to get to level 2, 3 games for level 3, etc.
If a player was to have their character die, they'd start again with either 4 level 0s or a level 1.
So figuring out when you level is easy, since you only have to count the number of games you were able to play in. But you would still eventuality get level differences, as players die or miss games (again, this was supposed to be for open play)"
I appreciate the comments about mixed level parties being difficult to adjudicate for. But one thing that is different for old school (unless I am mistaken they changed this in later editions) is that any magic user could use any scroll. Even if they are not high enough level to cast that spell. So if you have a low level wizard among your 5th level parties dropping a few scrolls changes the whole dynamic.
Provided you don't get instakilled by the first creature larger than a kitten that takes a swipe at you.
Provided you don't get BORED being relegated to the sideline for multiple grueling hours of watching OTHER PEOPLE have fun.
I mean my calculus is simple: I play games for fun. If I'm not having fun, I don't go to that game anymore. I don't plan fun on spec. It's fun out the door or I move on.
The non-combat things that hairylarry mentioned can ameliorate this, but in my experience those tended to be few and far between in most campaigns. You'd have a short time in the village talking to the villagers and then it's the next fifteen sessions in the dungeon.
There are a great many things to praise in the old school. The way mixed-level parties worked was not one of them. Some GMs could figure it out. Most couldn't, leaving the low-levelled character's player bored and/or frustrated and, very likely, absent next week.